Permesso smarrito
I like to think that my blog is a positive place to visit. I try to keep my complaining to a minimum, partly because I don't like to bring people down, and partly because I need this space to be positive. I have good days and bad days, and some really bad days, but I when I focus on the positive aspects of my life, it becomes more than just livable. But today there's no way I can't write a negative post. I am the angriest I've ever been since moving here. This is long, but bear with me.
N and I married at our commune in July of 2006. After that, we went to the Questura in Caserta, the capital of our province, to request a permesso di soggiorno per motivi familiari, or a permit to stay in Italy for family reasons. I had entered Italy as a tourist that May, and the permesso that they gave me at the end of August was valid for one year from my date of entry. That annoyed me because I'd heard of non-EU spouses of Italians citizens who had been able to start off with a permesso that lasted two years, or even better, a carta di soggiorno that lasts five years.
That November, N and I went to Rome one weekend because I was in a funk about Thanksgiving. On the train ride back home, my purse was stolen. Inside it were my U.S. passport and my permesso di soggiorno. When we got back home, we tried contacting Trenitalia on the off chance that someone had turned the documents in. The next step was going to the police and filing a denuncia about the lost permesso and passport. When I asked them about getting a new permesso, they told me I'd need a new passport first. My new passport arrived after three weeks, a few days before Christmas. At the police station they told me to come back after the holidays. For most of January, I played phone tag with the officer in charge of issuing the permesso. When I finally managed to speak to him, I was told, "Sorry Signora, now you have to go through the post office."
At the post office they knew nothing about requesting duplicates. They insisted we go to Caserta. To save a trip there, we called the Questura to ask what to do. They told us to go to the Post Office. On and on it went. Finally someone at the Questura had the genius idea of telling us how to explain to post office officials that it could be done. He also reprimanded me for letting the problem go on so long. At the beginning of February, I finally managed to file the request for a duplicate. I checked the process online for months, and as May approached, I realized I was not going to see it before the permesso expired. Then I tried to file a request for a renewal. At the post office, they didn't want to accept a request for a renewal without the original permesso. They told me to go to the police. The police suggested that I go to the Questura. We called the Questura and they told us that the post office had to accept the request as long as there was a copy of the denuncia attached. Back at the post office, no one considered accepting that solution until N began threatening them that he was about to get very angry. They decided they would accept the request, but only with the original denuncia. Well, there was no way I was about to let go of what seemed like the only evidence that I'd ever had a permesso (little did I know, that's exactly what it was, read on.) We went to the police to explain the problem. What problem, they wanted to know? Just send a copy, they told us. That's the problem, we told them again. After a truly frustrating ten minutes, we managed to convince them to make a couple of photocopies of the denuncia and then stamp and sign them. At the post office, they reluctantly accepted one of the authenticated copies, but only after they became aware of how persuasive N can be when he's furious.
So then I waited, checking the status of my request online every week. There was never any indication of an appointment, just a note about incomplete documentation. Which document, I wondered? Was it the denuncia? Then last week, I received a convocation letter telling me to go to the police station here with four photos, my passport, the originals of the documents supporting the request (i.e. the copy of the denuncia and a Stato di famiglia, which shows that N and I are still married.) At the appointment, the first thing the officer asked for was the original permesso. I gave him the denuncia and explained that the original was lost and that I never received a duplicate. He told me that I needed to go to Caserta as there was nothing he could do for me.
Monday morning I went back to the police station. I wanted the name of someone to ask for at the Questura di Caserta so that I wouldn't have to wait in line for hours (a reasonable concern for a woman who is six-months pregnant, I think.) The officer I spoke to wasn't there. I begged the one who was to help me and after a quick glance at my abdomen, he said, "Signora, let's try to resolve this problem here." He worked on my case for more than an hour. But then he came up against one problem after another in the computer system. The officer began to ask me questions I found odd: what was my date of entry, what was the number of the original permesso. He called Caserta six or seven times, trying to find someone who would help him. Finally he got through to someone willing to talk him through the procedure. They tried to fix the problem together for about twenty minutes. Then he told me, with obvious displeasure, "You have to go to Caserta." I asked him who I should ask for there, to avoid waiting in line and having to explain the problem to yet another person. He gave me the name of officer he had worked with on the phone.
That morning, I had intended to go to the Anagrafe to request the only document we didn't already have at home, a valid abstract of our marriage certificate. N and I wanted to bring every possible document with us in the event that at Caserta there were ever more problems. But I spent more time at the Polizia than I had planned, and I couldn't get to the Anagrafe, which is open only in the morning, in time. I called N to update him and he suggested that we go to the commune to request the document the next morning before leaving for Caserta. I was afraid of arriving there too late and suggested asking the woman who we'd be dealing with exactly what documents were necessary. N agreed, so I called her, explained who I was and asked her what to bring with me the next day. She told me to bring just the documentation that I had brought to the Polizia for my appointment. In our brief conversation, I asked two more times whether there were additional documents I needed to bring. The answer was always no. Then just before closing the call, I said, "So I only need to bring the documents listed in the convocation letter." Exactly, she said. I called N to give him another update and we decided to go directly to Caserta the next morning.
When we arrived at the Questura, we asked for the officer I had spoken to, but were told that we needed to wait in line at the immigration office. There we found complete chaos: one hundred people in a room made for twenty-five, and none of them with numbers. Every seat was taken. Everyone pushed and jostled to get close to the sportello. After about a half hour we managed to push our way closer, and when a couple of carabinieri exited the adjacent door, we asked if one of them (a woman,) were by chance the one I spoke with the day before. Unfortunately she wasn't, but when she went back into the office she must have told her colleague that we were there, because we were called to the sportello after another ten minutes. Once there, everything started out fine. I presented the letter and all the documents. But then she wanted to know why I hadn't brought a marriage abstract. I reminded her that I had brought the stato di famglia. I didn't understand why she even needed the abstract, because the stato di famiglia is a document that states that a marriage is ongoing, not just that a ceremony has taken place. She and a colleague continued to shuffle papers and insert information into a computer for a few minutes. The other officer came to the sportello with a receipt to sign, and then told us we could come back in a month to pick up the permesso, but that we had to come back within the next two days with the abstract. We took the receipt and made our way for the door, but then N turned to me and asked, "But we had to give them the abstract when we applied for the first permesso, why do they need another?" I waited while he went back to ask at the sportello. When he came back, he was already in the middle of a tirade and I had to ask him what they had said. Then he told me that they lost my file and all the documents in it. They had no record that I had ever had a permesso.
Now it all becomes clear. And to think I was beating myself up for not having made a photocopy of the permesso. I can't tell you how many times throughout this ordeal I've been reprimanded by public officials for having made that error. But who is there to reprimand them for theirs? They lost my file, and as N later told me, hundreds of others. But this has always been my fault, because I didn't know how to take care of my documents. One officer even suggested that only an American would commit such an error, and that other foreigners, more grateful for the chance of living in Italy, would have been more careful.
There is one positive aspect to all of this: when I finally do manage to get this permesso, it will last five years. N and I have already decided that in the meantime, I will be applying for Italian citizenship. Of course, that won't solve much- I'll still have to deal with arrogantly incompetent public officials, but there will be one less line I'll need to stand in.







21 responses:
Ugh ugh ugh. I've found that when things go easily here, they go really easily--and unfortunately the reverse is also true. I've had it both ways, and I do empathize.
I agree that citizenship is the way to go; a pain applying and all that, but once it's done, it's done.
How's La Piccola btw?
I can understand why you're so frustrated. I've had my fair share of having to rectify the mistakes made by others. Forget about going to the office for help because they either don't know what they're doing or don't care and in any case, they don't bother to inform themselves. Hang in there!
Wow. I commend you for putting this all down in writing. I have similar stories but could never get through writing it all down.
Once after I had only been here a year or two and was trying to get my health card, I saw a Vietnamese man in front of me turned away because on some document they had mistyped a letter and told him he had to go all the way back to Milan where the document was originally issued and get it corrected. I was turned away from my first driver license exam after having waited months for the appointment, for the same reason, there was one letter missing from my birthplace city...the worker had apparently mistyped it when they issued my permesso.
I once waited for SIXTEEN MONTHS for my work permesso to be renewed, only to find it expired when I finally went to pick it up, and to be told that it was my fault because my work contract had expired meanwhile (although it had been renewed as well, they didn't care). They had lost my paperwork, which caused the delay. I only found out because after like a year I went in to check on it for the umpteenth time.
You develop this mentality of "what documents might they possibly ask me for"? For me it's almost like a paranoic obsession, just to avoid having to go back a million times. Sometimes I feel like I'm in a video game and can't get past the measly 1st level. And sometimes I feel like the impiegati do this for sport. In fact, for years I've had a "master folder" with every possible document associated with anything bureaucratic here in Italy... plus about 5-10 photocopies of the biggies (like permesso and passport), because that's one of their favorite tricks... no photocopy? Go make one. And we're closing in 3 minutes.
Don't be fooled by them that in your case a photocopy would have magically turned things around... as I'm sure you know... they just pick whatever lame excuse they can find to ensure that it's your fault when it's really theirs. Not to sound bitter, but you know, it's true.
Hugs from a fellow war-wounded expat ;-)
What a horrific story! My own story wasn't much better (they lost all my docs after 4 months of applying).
You should be able to get the Carta di Soggiorno and not the permesso - you have the right as a wife of an Italian! Look on the Expats forum - they mentioned the exact law regarding this. I suggest printing it out and bringing it with you.
Sognatrice, that's exactly what I think about applying for citizenship, that it'll be a huge hassle but that I'll only have to do it once. La Piccola is quite well, judging from how energetically she likes to kick my bladder!
I know, MB, it's useless asking for help because even if you find someone willing, either they're uninformed, or, like the officer who tried to help me, they're competent but come up against a system that doesn't work and that frustrates them as much as it frustrates us.
Shelley, I actually debated whether to write it all down, but then I realized that it would make me feel better if I could reduce it all down to a nice, neat package. I'm sorry that you've been through so much of this nonsense too. I think you are right about the master folder of all documents. The best approach is to be paranoid and trust no one. Actually, that's not entirely accurate because you are trusting someone- yourself. We can only rely on ourselves, that's what it boils down to!
Sara, I know about the carta, but no one would let me apply for it, even though it's the law. At the end of my meeting with the poliziotto who actually tried to help me, he actually said, Signora, you should have gotten the carta right after you were married! I wanted to ask him if he'd come to the Questura with me to explain that to them. Couples that consist of an Italian and a foreign spouse are interrogated down here. I've heard of people who have been here for ten years on one one-year permesso after the other. The rules are ignored and nothing happens. (I think it may be a Southern problem.)
Wow, I'm so sorry you were put through all of that. It's theraputic to write it all down and get it all out. This further solidifies my decision to stay put here in the U.S. You and N really have a lot of patience, seriously.
Man - that totally sucks. Now I know why my husband is OBSESSED with having copies and copies of copies of documents.lol I am waiting for Italian citizenship to be granted now even though I am in the US. I am not counting on it being granted anytime soon. Sigh. so frustrating...
Good luck!
Piccola, I guess we are patient, but I have to admit that in moments like those at the Questura, sometimes I really want to go back to the U.S. It's not always easy to remember why we choose to stay.
Texas, good luck on your citizenship process! It will make a big difference if you move over here. When I first started dating N, I too wondered what was up with his mania for photocopying and saving everything. I learned the hard way!
I was lucky enough to get the carta di soggiorno right after I got married and thus was able to avoid all of that confusion that seems to have ensued with things being done in the posta now (Wasn't that supposed to simplify things, by the way? Last I heard, sounds like they had a backup of almost 1 million people...). In August, I lost my carta di soggiorno in the Zurich airport but didn't realize it until I got to the U.S. Two weeks later, on my way back through Zurich I inquired at Lost & Found on the off chance that someone had found my carta in the airport and turned it in! All they did was punch my name into a computer, the date the carta was lost and went to get it out of a file they had. So easy and stress-free. I wonder what would have happened had I lost it in an Italian airport? You have inspired me to make several copies of it and save it digitally on to my computer. I hope your mess gets resolved soon...so you can get back to the full-time job that is getting medical care for pregnancy here! :)
I have no words! Except that I totally sympathise with your situation.... I am English, which in theory makes the process much easier, being part of the European Community. However I have also suffered endless delays, mis-information and time wasting in my efforts to get residency. Even to the point where the friendly lady official at the Comune di Milano said to me "The rules change so often that even we don't know which documentation you need to have - so how are you supposed to??!!" Unbelievable...
One officer even suggested that only an American would commit such an error, and that other foreigners, more grateful for the chance of living in Italy, would have been more careful."
Oh, that just makes my blood boil! I want to say so much more, but I can't seem to get past those words! Grrrr ...
Wow - what a horrendous story. Sadly, I've heard many similar stories - sometimes you wonder how being this inefficient benefits the impegiati in all these govt offices. Surely, seeing all these stressed out crying people makes them more stressed than providing decent service would.
I don't know what it's like in Caserta but here in Rome the "Ufficio d'immigrazione" is one of Dante's circles of hell. I remember that there was all these foreigners there desperately trying to get to the sportelli. Many of them had kids with them (because unlike Italians, foreigners have lots of kids!) and some of them needed to go to the bathroom. The lady behind the sportello barked at them that the toilets were only for staff and the kids had to do their business outside on the pavement. :(
Dealing with the beehive hairdoed immigrazione official at that office I realy felt like I was back in Russia (where I lived for a year). But at least in Russia if you were rude back and yelled at them they would do what they were supposed to do. Here nothing works -rudeness, niceness, yelling - nothing.
Holy cannoli. That almost read like a mystery novel - what can go wrong next.
I doff my wig at your diligent pursuit. I'm way too lazy for all that work.
My head is spinning! Now that is one INsane situation. Unfortunately, I think it's not that rare either. The same sort of thing happened to me with my court case: the courthouse kept losing my file with the paperwork in it so my lawyer and I had to send, re-send, then send again all of the documents.
Nice to see our tax euro at work (;
oh my dear, what a story.
i (anna, german, living and soon marrying in genova) am just right at the beginning of my long way through italian bureaucracy (and i am sure, being european makes it much simpler), but i also had already my share of stubbern loopse and elipses between non-competent and non-responsible offices.
but genova also seems to be a place, where quite a lot of especially nice people are working in the offices, apologizing for stupid laws and explaining why they dont know anything about how it is going to work from now on (there were just this year a lot of new laws concerning member of eu). this is not solving any problem, but today we even left an office laughing hard, because of this very nice guy working behind the desk. i wish you some like them in your way, too. and of course, the italian citizenship as soon and uncomplicated as possible.
all the best, anna
Michelle, whenever I hear the number of requests in the backlog (now a million!) I realize that I'm actually one of the lucky ones, even if I've had to go through this to get as far as I have. And yes, it's ridiculous that I need to worry about this right now.
Emmina, I believe it that even EU nationals have to go through such hassles. Like the woman at your comune said, the rules change so often that no one knows anything. They're also so convoluted most of the time that they invite misunderstanding.
Giulia, isn't that infuriating! I'd love to back to that person and ask whether losing entire files of permesso requests is something only an Italian could do. (I'm not saying that that's what I think...I 'd just love to see his reaction to that kind of insult.
Kataroma, they treat most excommunitari as though they're less than human, and in part because the system is so dysfunctional that it creates a culture of disrespect. I've had it easier than most, though. Except for that one officer's snide remark about my not photocopying the permesso, I get better (slightly) treatment once they see my American passport. And that is unjust.
Cupcake, I hope the mystery has truly been solved, because if I go back there in a month and something else goes wrong, I will really lose it! It has been so much work taking care of this, but while it was happening, I was so immersed in it that I wasn't aware of that.
Anon, it can't be rare considering the antiquated means they use to store documents. I can't tell you how many offices I've been in with just piles of docs in yellowing folders stacked everywhere. Or they use a computer system but refuse to rely on it- why was there no computer record of my first permesso? And we're paying these clowns' salaries.
Hi Anna, thanks for coming by! I agree that it makes it less upsetting when people are apologetic for all the nonsense. Good luck on your journey through Italian bureaucracy!
Fully understand the fraustration.. I'm waiting for my carta di soggiorno.. and hope it won't takes too long as at the meanwhile I can't leave Italy (or not supposed too.. btw, what will happened if I do?) This is a big problem as we both loveee travelling....
Good luck and hang in there
Hi Ari! Not being allowed to leave Italy is very frustrating during the wait. I was very naughty, though, and did it anyway! I had no trouble at all, but we stayed within E.U. I don't know if that made a difference. Good luck with your CdiS- I hope it comes soon!
After 15 years of renewing one-year permesso di soggiornos, I finally applied for citizenship. Every year they would say that maybe the next year they would give me an "indefinite" one or at least a five-year one, but in the end it was always a one-year permit. I was married and had two Italian children, what else did they need to see!!
Now I even have an Italian passport and a carta d'identità that is valid for travel in all of
Europe.
Fifteen years! Elizabeth, you must have the patience of a saint! I think it's ridiculous that they would do that to the mother of two Italian citizens! Citizenship really is the way to go. Documents are so important in this culture and having temporary ones just makes life harder.
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